greyias | The Stargate Romance Rant... it's been brewing for a while now.

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The Stargate Romance Rant... it's been brewing for a while now.

SGA. I love you.

I really do.

I love your teaminess, your crackiness, I adore your snark. I love seeing Bill Nye the Science Guy acting like Rodney, and Rodney the mighty lumberjack as he breaks down a door to be Mr. Hero. I really do.

But we have a problem here.

You suck at (intentional) romance.

You really suck at it, and I've been able to turn a blind eye up to this point. So, while I did enjoy 90% of "Brain Storm" and would have made a happy post o' squee... you're going to make me rant. Because I've been holding it in since "The Shrine".

Okay, see, I enjoyed this episode right up until the very end. I really did. I handwaved the science, and I enjoyed Rodney and Keller's interactions, so I was ready to give them a "Woohoo! You finally figured out how to do roman--DEAR GOD NO! NO! WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO ME?" So, uh, despite my intentions to make a squeeful post about every episode... this one's not going to be so much. I do have squee for the episode, I did enjoy it, but the end... sorry guys, I gotta rant.

I really don't mind the idea of McKay/Keller. I really don't. While I prefer that he be single canonically, mostly for selfish ficcing purposes as I've explained to

xparrot, I don't mind the idea of him and Keller together. I like her character for the most part, and in theory, it's cute. It's the execution on the show that I'm having problems with.

In theory, I'm not opposed to McKay/Keller. (I aslo hate portmanteus, so I'm going to avoid them for this post.) I think she's a much better match for him than Katie. She seems to actually understand that Rodney is Rodney, and just isn't "having a grumpy day" like I got the impression of Katie in "Quarantine" (and on that ntoe: WTF writers?) She's someone who looks like she'll allow Rodney to be himself, but try to encourage him to tone down other aspects of his personality. I think the "Kinder, Gentler Rodney McKay" is something that's in his mind, and I think she'd probably smack him upside the head if she realized that he was trying to dumb himself down for her.

OFF TOPIC SIDETRAIN - Kind of like John... Honestly, I saw a lot of parallels with her and John in this episode... you probably could have switched them out and not had to change the lines much. Which is, uh, strange. And off topic. And right, I'm supposed to be getting to my rant.

Back on topic, I liked the fact that at the end, Rodney even told her "Screw this! It does matter to me!", because that's our Rodney right there.

But...

I really, really, really, really, REALLY hated the last few seconds of "The Shrine". And I hated the call back to it in this episode just that much more. To break it down:

ONE
Now, I'm sure some people did, and power to them, but there was absolutely no way in the world I can find it cute, flattering, or even the tiniest bit romantic that someone who is mentally regressing to tell me that he loves me. I would find it creepy. And insulting. And there are a lot of reasons why, but it boils down to the fact that it's not really that person telling me that. Part of a person is not a whole person. To me, that basically said, "Part of me loves you. But whole me doesn't."

Yes, yes, I know what they were trying to say is that Rodney with all of his walls and his social awkwardness couldn't say it. (Possibly because the relationship hadn't progressed to the point of LOVE DECLARATIONS? Oh wait, that's point two.) That's not what it said to me though. It basically said to me, "We the writers have absolutely no clue what's romantic, but we think the chicks would dig this, because I think I saw it in a sappy romantic movie my wife/girlfriend/significant other dragged me to once. And she cried, so I guess it worked then."

Of course, I don't cry or get all emotional in most chick flick movies either, so my opinion might not really count here.

TWO
"I've loved you... I have for some time now."

O RLY? YOU HAVE? "FOR SOME TIME NOW"?

Where is my onscreen evidence of this? Where the hell is my build up? Where is the indication that Rodney and Keller hang out and enjoy each other's company before all of this? Where is the indication that they're close friends to where this statement might make one lick of sense? Did it all happen off screen? Maybe it could have. Maybe there was an indication on both sides that things were building up to this point--

McKAY: Jennifer, we practically dated.

KELLER: You bought me one drink! That's hardly dating!

McKAY: Right, so, well now I'm asking you to have dinner with me -- I mean ... (he brandishes the pot again, smiling at her) ... such as it is.

Oh, wait -- there wasn't. In the same fricking episode as mine most hated statement. I can buy, maybe, and that's if you liquor me up a little, that Rodney has fallen for her over the course of "The Shrine" and possibly since "Trio". But... "for some time now"? That's not some time. That's hardly any time.

This statement does not work in real life, hell, this doesn't work in well written television life unless you're in the seventh grade and you're asking out the popular girl you've been oggling all year long in homeroom class. People who have real relationships don't suddenly love someone without a reason. Especially love they've had for a long time now but they've been secretly harborinng. I belive in adult world, we call that a crush. Crushes ≠ Love. Crushes = Crushes.

I really don't mind Rodney and Keller declaring their love for each other, but for the love of the freaking Ori, can you please show me how we get from a beer after "Trio" to TRUE WUB in "The Shrine". I mean, I don't need huge acts of enormity, I just need... actual scenes together? Where they enjoy each other's company. And if we are going to be all trite and have huge sweeping, awkwardly written declarations of love, can we please have our characters be mentally whole and sound while doing so?

THREE
Ah, the ~~cliched~~ classic "callback line". Which works about half the time. (Usually it works better if it made more sense on the first round.) We do have the benefit that they've had more screen time together, and seem to enjoy each other's company. So, character-wise, it can work. It might even work for me ~~if it wasn't so badly written~~ if I didn't hate the original so much.

All right, I'll just be honest here. My pipe dream was that they'd deal with that stupid line properly in the "That was horribly awkward, made me uncomfortable when you said it, but I do have feelings for you" kind of way. Since I know them, and that they thought that was the love declaration for the ages, I was more hoping against hope they'd forget to even address the stupid thing. That way, I could be 100% canon compliant when I wrote things, I could have that as an issue that Rodney and Keller would work through in their relationship, rather than be the foundation for it.

Brain damaged love declarations as the foundation of a relationship. Seriously. SRSLY?

I know it was supposed to be sweet and cute. But for me, it really wasn't.

FOUR
WE LOVE EACH OTHER. LET'S HAVE SEX.

No, no, let's not date each other, make sure we're on the same page, put some emotional foundation on this relationship as we transition from friends to something more. Let's just get down to the part that apparently really matters. We could wait and possibly act like normal people who might have an awkward transition phase, we have a private jet plane now, and we've always wanted to get on the Mile High Club.

I hate it in fanfic, I hate it in shows. A friendship is a relationship. It matters. And it matters that you're going to be friends after you resolve your UST. (That I don't really see, but I don't see it 90% of the time, so my opinion... probably don't count much.) Friends who start to date each other I would expect in most cases would, even if they've wanted to for a while and yearned for it, be terrified and horribly awkward about it.

~~But then Martin Gero couldn't live out his fantasies vicariously through his writing.~~

FIVE
This one is all me here, I'll admit. The age thing seriously, seriously is bothering me more than I thought it would (when they start suggesting sexual acts. (I blame

dovil's "Creepy Uncle Rodney" rant from last season.) Them kissing is kind of cute, but the thought of something more starts to wig me out. Can we have a statement that Keller is at least thirty? Plz? Because for some reason, fifteenish age year difference really squicks me more than a ten year gap.

On a side note, why can't I think of her as Jennifer in my mind?

In conclusion: I love you show. Why do we have to fight?

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, maybe I can make my regular post o' squee in a little bit. Also! I need to make a birthday post o' squee, because I got presents! :D

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Brain twins we are here.

I was completely willing to surf along on Bill Nye, Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Dave Foley!!!11! squee but NO! they had to bludgeon me with the most horrible romance anvil I've witnessed in a long time!

I'm holding back on capslock by a hairsbreadth.

I can probably be squeeful about most of the episode now that I've embarrassed myself ranting. I'm still utterly squeeful about "The Shrine", and I'm close to desensitizing myself to that last bit.

And Bill Nye! Neil DeGrasse Tyson! And Dave Foley!

the most horrible romance anvil I've witnessed in a long time

SNORT! I think that's the best way to sum it up.

A friendship is a relationship. It matters.
Yes, yes, YES! Friendship matters. Lovers should be friends first, both in the temporal sense and in the sense of what matters most. And the writers can often even handle friendship, as opposed to lurve, which they can't handle much at all. (Doesn't Martin Gero have a girlfriend? I mean, really, if I hadn't seen pictures of him with a woman on Mallozzi's blog, I'd think maybe he didn't even know any women beyond acquaintanceship!)

Bill Nye and Neil de Grasse Tyson made me happy, and watching Rodney usually makes me happy and did in spite of the writing last night, so I'm mostly just pretending that certain moments of the show didn't happen. Didn't happen at all. On the plane? What? Just snuggling. Honest. I'm sure of it. I know that if I had nearly died and were still wet or even kinda damp under a blanket, snuggling is what I'd want. (Nearly as much as I'd want to change my clothes before I got on the frigging plane! "No, just use the jet for someone else, and I'll go to the nearest Target and get some pants and a top. Warm ones. Dry ones.")

I think the rubber band gun is too good for Martin Gero at this point. BH says a paintball gun will hurt more. I need to upgrade.

Martin Gero does have a girlfriend, and seems like a pretty cool guy in real life. I'm guessing that the whole romance angle is something he and the other writers really don't care for, but they think they have to, so it always comes off like this. Hell, I loved the Daniel/Vala UST element, but hated how they handled it in "Unending".

I don't know if it's just a guy's view on relationships, or that they really don't want to write this sort of thing. Either way, it never works for me when they try to showcase it. In the background? It usually works. Rodney and Katie's background relationship, Carson and Cadman's, Sha're and Daniel, etc, etc... but the moment when they try to showcase it is when they turn me off. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if they like the idea of it, but they don't exactly feel it, if that makes any sense? There are lots of scenes and characters that I love the idea of, but if I don't feel it, then the writing comes out horribly clumsy and awkward.

On the plane? What? Just snuggling. Honest. I'm sure of it. I know that if I had nearly died and were still wet or even kinda damp under a blanket, snuggling is what I'd want.

By George, you're right! I totally read that scene wrong! They wanted sky high snuggles! (And I'm guessing the plane was taking them to Target, since the area was in the middle of the desert.)

Yes, I thought he had a girlfriend.
seems like a pretty cool guy in real life
Too bad it's not carrying over into some of his writing!

I get frustrated partly because I know he can do better! I really did like "Ethon" and "200"; I loved "The Road Not Taken," on SG-1. For SGA: "The Storm," "The Eye," "The Siege," "McKay and Mrs. Miller".... But then there's "Allies" and "No Man's Land," and "Sunday," which I'm having a hard time forgiving (still working on it).

the more I wonder if they like the idea of it, but they don't exactly feel it
Maybe that's why so many of us don't feel it! I love Rodney, I want to see him happy; I really do like Jennifer, and I can see them together. This wasn't that episode, however, so I'm shutting out some of the details.

You could be right, that either there's a decree from on high or, more likely, just a sense that a show that runs so long ought to produce a romance. You're absolutely right about romance in the background versus trying to put it in the foreground. (Marty G wrote Young People Fucking, which I have no particular desire to see given his track record with anything romantic! I am curious about it, though.)

Snuggling. That's what anyone who just nearly died would want, especially after her boyfriend decided she needed CPR and probably left her with a bruise the size of her head on her sternum. Said boyfriend doubtless needs it too, although he is, as his previous girlfriend noted, a little "prickly." ;-)

Maybe that's why so many of us don't feel it! I love Rodney, I want to see him happy; I really do like Jennifer, and I can see them together. This wasn't that episode, however, so I'm shutting out some of the details.

Yes, yes, yes! That is it exactly! How are you always able to phrase what I'm thinking so much better than me? It's not that I don't like one of the characters, don't like the thought of them being together, I'm just having issues with what I've seen.

Marty G wrote Young People Fucking, which I have no particular desire to see given his track record with anything romantic! I am curious about it, though.

The title of it alone has frightened me from seeking it out. It might be interesting to see, see if what I think I'm getting out of the episodes is what he's really writing, or if something's been lost/changed along the way.

Snuggling. That's what anyone who just nearly died would want, especially after her boyfriend decided she needed CPR and probably left her with a bruise the size of her head on her sternum.

Owww... I'm just imagining it, and it seems like breathing would be painful. Snuggles probably wouldn't be incredibly comfortable, but at least comforting?

Um, I get what you're saying but I loved the episode, all of it, and so I guess we'd better just agree to disagree on this one. I know it might seemed rushed, but I guess for me I'm used to TV doing that (or else spinning out for ages and ages until it's gets boring - I prefer the former). Whatever, I loved it, even the bits you didn't (and am more irritated by the medical mistakes, but I'm chosing to ignore them).

On the plus side, this means that, despite evidence to the contrary (our IM chats), we don't actually share the same brain!! *phew*

Minor note: Is it specifically for Rodney/Jennifer that you have a problem with the age gap? I know for some they find it hard for those two charcaters but have no problem with it in real life. Just wondering, seeing as I married a man 16 years my senior and have never regretted it!

Well, a rant is a rant ;) I really don't expect a lot of people to agree with me. I just sort of needed to get it off my chest. Usually once I do, I can just move past what's bugging me. Because this? Is such a minor thing in the show. I've just been sitting on the annoyance for a while because I wanted to be utterly squeeful about our last season.

I did enjoy almost the entire episode. I think if I wasn't so emotionally invested into the show, it wouldn't have bugged me as much as it did. I usually just roll my eyes and move on. I don't think it's even that it's rushed that it bugged me... I don't know, it's hard to explain. I think I'm just more irritated at the fact that I've got to try and reslot things about the characters in my head. Really, it's a selfish thing ;)

It's not going to ruin the show for me, short of them killing off the cast and revealing it's all been a dream, I don't think they could.

we don't actually share the same brain!! *phew*

Are you sure? Perhaps it means that our shared brain is having some sort of epic internal struggle that is manifesting itself in strange ways.

Is it specifically for Rodney/Jennifer that you have a problem with the age gap?

I think it's just the characters, because usually I'm not bothered by it. (In fact, even with these two characters it didn't use to bother me, but it seriously twigged me out in this episode.) I think I'm reacting to not believing the relationship the way they've done it, and the age gap in this case makes it more awkward.

(And I would never have a problem with other people's relationships in real life. That's a totally different beast than fictional-characters-who-I'm-possibly-too-emotionally-invested-in.)

...okay, so, this might get a bit long, apologies in advance :-p.

On your points of why the show oh so loses at writing believable romance, I agree COMPLETELY! All five of your points are spot on! (Including the age thing, which is funny, cause I actually often go for age differences, it's actually kinda a kink. But it disturbs/disappoints me when it's never MENTIONED. One of the things that can be fun/interesting about a big age gap is the adversity that goes with it, proving that your relationship, your bond, transcends your generation gap and the doubts others cast upon it. Except here, no doubts, not even a single raised eye-brow that she's possibly young enough to be his daughter...)

The problem I keep having is I don't see how the relationship *ever* could work. You mention at one point the lack of seeing them just enjoying each other's company previous to "The Shrine". I still find such scenes lacking, up to and including this ep. Keller, nor Rodney for that matter, ever come across like they're really having *fun* with each other. She had to remind him he was sitting with a "beautiful woman." Because the love and lust and UST is such that she has to POINT THIS OUT! Oh show. She spends the entire ep nagging him, asking him to change his conversation, change his personality and pointing out that she's coming only because she's (I guess) interested in him. Past that she keeps stating how much she finds the subject deathly dull. Physics, y'know, Rodney's greatest passion, holds not a single lick of interest for her. And he finds her field equally deplorable, as so much past evidence would suggest. Not that they have to share all their interests. But they have to have *something* in common. And when they're two people who live their careers, having respect/interest in those fields I think does start to really come into play. Heck, they don't even enjoy the same food in this. (poor Rodney and his strawberry phobia *smishes him*)

She doesn't even know him well enough to trust him when he stands up and says this is a BAD PLAN. Instead she just seems to want him to stop embarrassing her. This is *Rodney*, yes, he has an ego, but also, he has that tone he gets when it's all going to hell, when he says we really shouldn't do it and that's when you know you'd better listen cause otherwise the UNIVERSE could be destroyed (or maybe you'll get lucky and it's just the city blowing up...) He's in charge of science on Atlantis, he's saved the day oh so many times. She *knows* this, but still doesn't back him up there.

You mention it coming across like a crush. And that's exactly how it plays to me. Like a high school crush, where they view each other from afar, go "oh, pretty," and when they hook up, realize there's absolutely no substance to their relationship and move on. Except they're not in HS and they've known each other quite some time but aren't moving on, just stumbling awkwardly forward.

*ack* Oh god, sorry for the rant! It's just....the relationship seems so high school from start to finish and the fact they're putting so much screen time into it when there's so little of the show left just frustrates me. *sigh* Ah well...*goes back to huggling my shiny new NCIS. While the fandom's not so large, at least the show is happy-making, and just seems to be getting better...* Oh SGA, as you say, why must we fight? Ah well, there's always all the wondrous, glorious (often better written than canon :-p) fic! ^_-

WARNING: Possibly Incoherent Rambling Ahead

On Keller, at least for this episode, I'm going to have to disagree. I think she acted just like any one of Rodney's friends would I think would, including John. She teased Rodney, tried to reel him in from an embarrassing social situation (and I think it was for his sake, not hers). The more I think about it, the more I see that scene where Rodney's standing up in front of the crowd as her trying to shush him, possibly for Stargate secrecy reasons, but also because she can see it's not going to work. It never really come across to me as nagging or "trying to change Rodney", it's one thing to tell someone to try to act humble, to try and reign in their bad behavior in public. His team does to him all the time, so I really don't see her behavior as the problem.

Past that she keeps stating how much she finds the subject deathly dull. Physics, y'know, Rodney's greatest passion, holds not a single lick of interest for her.

I don't know... I find that a little unfair. Nobody loves physics as much as Rodney, with the possible exception of Sam, Zelenka, and Bill Nye the Science Guy.

Of course she'd be bored there, Ronon/Teyla/John/Woolsey/Carson/Amelia/Torren/Lorne/Elizabeth would be bored too. (Todd wouldn't be bored, but that's because Todd would be at a physicist buffet. The smart ones always taste better.) Any one of them would find the physics boring, they would needle Rodney about it, because if the situation were reversed, Rodney would probably be just as snarky to them at a Satedan Art Lesson/Athosian Harvest Festival/Surfing Contest/Paper Pusher Secret Society Meeting/Medical Conference/Gate Techs Anonymous/Pre-School/Gun Show/Linguistics Lecture.

Except here, no doubts, not even a single raised eye-brow that she's possibly young enough to be his daughter...)

You know, maybe that's the problem here. It's not that she is so younger, it's that it's just ignored, glossed over so they don't have to worry about addressing it (and here is where I'm going to sound like I hate the pairing/Keller, when that's note really the case):

It seems to me that they've taken a lot of shortcuts in this relationship, and sometimes decisions with Keller's character, and I think it's possibly because they're hypersensitive to criticism of her? A lot of fans had dismissed her before she even showed up, in places/ways that JM and company were sure to see. I can understand the knee jerk reaction that we're all insane for judging something we haven't seen. Fans rarely come across as the most rational of people

But it almost feels... I swear, and this is more with the pairing, it feels like they're ignoring addressing any potential pitfalls, as if they're afraid that they address them the fans will latch on and use that as support for their dislike of it. And of course, some would. That's the nature of fanning. But it's frustrating to me, as someone who actually saw potential back at the end of season four for a romantic relationship between these characters to be treated so... what is the word I'm looking for here? I don't know. I gagged a tiny bit at the callback, but understood that was my issue. A lot of people enjoyed it. I know why I disliked it for numerous reasons, but had grudgingly resigned myself to the fact that it was canon. (Just like sadly, somehow "Irresponsible", and "Travelers", and "Whispers" is canon.)

But somewhere, for me, it crossed the line from sappy to squirm-inducing, and I think it was near the very end of the airplane scene. Someone once mentioned to me that reading the Twilight books felt like reading someone's sexual fantasies -- and that's how the end of that scene felt to me. I'm afraid (really afraid) that I'm going to have to watch it again, because now I'm morbidly curious if it was the suggestion of sex so soon that bothered me, or the way they suggested it that bothered me.

(It was the Mile High Club part that really tipped me over into rant mode. I did enjoy most of the episode, even if I haven't really squeed about it yet.)

I might get long-winded as well, apologies in advance...

I think she acted just like any one of Rodney's friends would I think would, including John.

See, here I'm gonna have to disagree with your disagree. For a couple of reasons. First, though the other's all often tease Rodney about his modesty, or lack there of, I can't remember times they actually order him to tone it back and truly expect him to do so (I could be misremembering). I see a difference between teasing, if it's with the intent of hoping the person will get a clue and better themselves, and actually requesting and expecting the person to do it.

Second, with Keller, I have the added problem because she *WASN'T* there in the capacity of a friend, but supposedly on a first date. When I friend asks to you to tone it down, or teases you about your shortcomings, it's a suggestion. But when a date/potential lover does it, it becomes more than a suggestion, adding the implicit understanding "make these changes or lose the chance for nookie/an on-going relationship". And Rodney responds to it as such. When his other friends (including Teyla, Elizabeth and even Sam, so it's not just a male/female thing) tease him about his short-comings, he usually responds with snark, or just simply ignores them. But with Keller, he meekly tries to obey. He's acting differently with her, because she isn't just a friend, he's looking for something more. So when she keeps nagging/mocking him into change, and instead of responding like the arrogant, self-assured Rodney McKay we know, he keeps caving, it makes me cringe.

Third, I really REALLY don't agree with the idea that the rest of the team would have just rolled over when Rodney stood up and went, NO this is a really baaaad idea. Rodney gets that tone, and they listen. As recent as Prodigal, when Rodney tells John to stop, strange readings, and he immediately *does*, as do all the Marines. Except Lorne, who got the warning a little too late. Poor Lorne *smishes him*. And, seriously, if the writers HAD put John or Teyla or Ronon in Keller's place and they'd done the same thing, telling Rodney to sit back down when he's saying No, this is DANGEROUS, instead of say, calling the SGC, or making enough of a fuss that they had to be escorted out under guards or what not, then believe me, I'd be just as pissed at them and the writers.

Rodney's in a room, surrounded by peers that don't truly respect him, as she's already born witness. She's the ONLY one that knows what he does, how he's helped *save the galaxy*, how he's done more brilliant things than they can hope to dream of, but he can't tell any of them. She's the only one who knows he's had experience with this before and instead of support him in the face of everyone's ignorance, she tells him to back down. And she's WRONG. DEAD WRONG! The idiot almost destroys the planet, not to mention get them all killed, and if she had encouraged Rodney to stand his ground, argue it out with them, if she'd had faith in her "twoo wuv", then they all might have been spared the whole ordeal.

Of course she'd be bored there, Ronon/Teyla/John/Woolsey/Carson/Amelia/Torren/Lorne/Elizabeth would be bored too.

This one I didn't explain as well as I should of. It's not that I expect her to love physics as much as he does. Very few can (though it is one of the things that always made me think Rodney and Sam were rather adorable together, really). More, the point I was trying to make is that we know what they DON'T have in common, the medicine and physics, but they've never shown anything they DO share. When John and Rodney hang out together, we know, we SEE what they have in common, *why* they like to hang out together. Ditto with Rodney and Zelenka or Rodney and Sam (in both cases, they both love their physics oh so much). Other than that, apart from work, we don't see Rodney hanging out with many others. Except with Keller. But unlike the former, we are never given any indication of WHY they like hanging out together. What draws them together?

it's that it's just ignored, glossed over so they don't have to worry about addressing it

See, that's what's been getting me so much about Keller's character: so much of it is glossed over. They seem to dismiss any actual development, particularly flaws, in favor of going "look, look JEWEL STAITE!!" And that's the thing that's boggling my mind. You say a lot of people were against her from the beginning. Now maybe it's just the particular people on my flist (I have a LOT of fans of Firefly there) but I saw a lot more worry over Sam than of Keller at the beginning. Except for the people that were adamantly against anything not Carson, most people I saw were excited by the addition of Jewel to the cast. I know I was. It's been her development, or lack there of, the "everybody just loves her, no one ever questions her", the glossing over of any potential flaws that has actually had me liking her less and less (I have a half-written essay on the idea of characters being added late in the game *needing* to be questioned and doubted by the already-established characters so that, in winning them over, they too win over the audience, but have never gotten around to finishing it). They gloss over pretty much all of Keller's flaws, especially any potential flaws in her romances and in doing so, I think it weakens the characters and relationships, rather than strengthening them. If you present a flaw, you can address it, over come it. Ignore it, and you sway dangerously into "oh-so-perfect Mary-Sue" territory.

I did enjoy most of the episode, even if I haven't really squeed about it yet.)

See, and for me, part of the problem with the poorly-written romance is that it just was the final nail in the coffin for an ep I really just *did not* like. Mainly cause it felt like one big, gigantic OOC-fest. For more details, check out

xparrot's post on it, but, at the heart of it, as I crazy Rodney fan, I spent most of the ep going, "but where's the Rodney I love?!"

...and that question, I think, is where some of my fundamental problem's with the McKeller come in. Repeatedly the one thing (basically the ONLY thing) they've shown us that Keller is attracted to, in terms of Rodney, is when he's being all sweet/woobie-tastic. And while I do enjoy Rodney like that, so much of what I love about Rodney *is* his arrogance, his supreme confidence, and his amazing intelligence and competence that can actually back up his ego. She wants him to "be humble" and I want to slap her and go "no BITCH, his arrogance his HOT and oh yeah, HE'S RIGHT!!!!!" When Rodney's being all egotistical and he's wrong, I do cringe for him some, but more often than not, he has the know how to back up his ego, and I just find that supreme confidence a turn on. Competence is SEXY. Keller seems deadest on taking away many of the characteristics that most draw me to Rodney, that make him the character I adore and this episode, more than any other, highlighted that fact for me.

....Ooops. So so sorry about length. The Keller/ McKeller thing has just been driving me INSANE, fueled more so when I see other female characters/relationships I do like (hello NCIS, *snuggles it*). As I said before, I love Jewel Staite, or did. I'm disliking Keller enough that I worry about how I'll feel next time I rewatch Firefly, and Rodney had made it on my favorite characters of all time list, and yet, the McKeller is making me start to GROAN when Rodney comes on screen, if it's in connection with Keller, and the way he acts around her makes me truly *dislike* the character. I just think it takes some writing talent, of the VERY NEGATIVE variety, to do that to actors/characters I like. :-p (and there I go again, okay, stopping now. Really. Really I will. Sorry if I'm harshing on some of your squee, McKeller/show wise, really don't wanna do that. I just really need to put SGA canon behind me, I think, and wallow is some good fic. You guys all right it better, anways! :-p) * big huggles*

You say a lot of people were against her from the beginning. Now maybe it's just the particular people on my flist (I have a LOT of fans of Firefly there) but I saw a lot more worry over Sam than of Keller at the beginning. Except for the people that were adamantly against anything not Carson, most people I saw were excited by the addition of Jewel to the cast. I know I was.

I think it's definitely a difference in the groups we were hanging out with at the time. Up until late last year most of my fandom interaction had been limited to one mailing list hosted on Yahoo Groups, and people there... well, there was a lot of teeth gnashing over Sam, and there was a lot of the Carson backlash too (oh my, was there!), but there were a lot of people that I don't think fit either camp that were already judging the character before she even made it to screen. I mean, I could go track down the original conversations, but they gave me a headache to start with. It was basically knocking at everything from Jewel Staite's age to calling her a Mary Sue before she even made it screen. So, in that way, I've been a little predisposed to be protective of a character that I felt got a raw deal from fandom from the start. (Which I think more relates to my only attempt to join the SG-1 fandom as a Jonas fan during season six. It... kind of ruined a lot of the show for me.)

Of course, that particular mailing list has gotten progressively nastier and more negative to the point where I don't even post there anymore. Which is sad, because they were the ones that really got me writing in this fandom in the first place.

They gloss over pretty much all of Keller's flaws, especially any potential flaws in her romances and in doing so, I think it weakens the characters and relationships, rather than strengthening them. If you present a flaw, you can address it, over come it. Ignore it, and you sway dangerously into "oh-so-perfect Mary-Sue" territory.

This, I can't argue with one bit. I think I was saying to

xparrot a while back is that I've filled in a lot of the blanks with Keller, so the glossing doesn't really bother me like it normally would--but that's not to say it's good writing, because it so isn't. And while the lack of addressing the character's personal flaws I found occasionally annoying, I found the whitewashing in the "romance" full-blown irritating. I mean I tried, I really tried to make things make sense in my head with what I knew of the characters, provide valid reasoning for XYZ so that the end of "The Shrine" didn't ruin a squeetastic episode for me... and then this. Rargh.

See, and for me, part of the problem with the poorly-written romance is that it just was the final nail in the coffin for an ep I really just *did not* like.

I think the Martin Gero interview did it for me. I can't even think about this episode now without getting irrationally angry. Which is really stupid, because it's just a television show. Oh, he set me off but good. Those things I was still okay with last week? Kind of buried under a big pile of disdain right now. I'm not sure if I can ever watch this episode again, and will have a really hard time accepting it as canon.

Eek! Sorry for like the, week-long delay in replying. I got caught up in Flashfic and holidays

Lol, no problems. So totally understand how that goes. I'm notoriously bad about responding to things...especially e-mail ^_-

So the whole pre-disposed to defend Keller totally makes sense. And I think that's the reverse that happened to me. I, and a lot of people on my flist, were just optimistic/enthusiastic to have Jewel Staite on board, so when the character failed to deliver, we were disappointed. That disappointment just heightened our negative feelings towards her. Coming from a defense position totally makes you view a character differently. I've been there myself in the past on occasion.

think the Martin Gero interview did it for me. I can't even think about this episode now without getting irrationally angry. Which is really stupid, because it's just a television show.

First off, yeah, see neechan's response on the Gero interview for how I feel. We were SEETHING. As to getting irrationally angry over TV...*shifty guilty eyes* Um...yeaaaah, you should have SEEN/HEARD the rants going on here. (They get even louder when there's two of you to bounce the rage off of). Course, after Smallville, we have LOTS of practice :-p. Though at least with SV, we knew going in that the show was gonna drive us up a wall. With SGA, it feels much more like a betrayal. This was my happy place, dammit!!

I mean, I was seriously depressed months ago that my show was ending. Now I'm just wanting them to not kill my squee in the last three episodes with this ridiculous hack writing.

That is the EXACT way I'm feeling about it right now. Just...if we can get through these last four eps, we can look past it, to the much much happier place that is fandom. Neechan and my solution currently is to poor our canon love into NCIS, which the show is making us terribly happy right now, but has very little fandom to speak of, and continue to dedicate our fandom love to SGA, whose fandom continues to impress in volume, quality, and squee .

So the whole pre-disposed to defend Keller totally makes sense.

Come to think of it, it probably explains a lot of my feelings on her character. I've got this thing for the underdog, and Keller has always been one in my eyes from a fandom perspective. Despite that, I don't think I was expecting much, but I really did warm to her character after "Trio" last year, and it helped me appreciate earlier episodes where I had only been so-so with her. But I can definitely see it from the other side, having much higher expectations and getting something that was completely different.

We were SEETHING.

I'm really glad I'm not the only one that got so angry reading that. I think, were it his normal asshattery I would have been annoyed, but I think combined with not only the implication that Rodney considers his team less important than a badly written love story, plus that people need to have this sexual romantic love, and those who don't... urgh! Push-button, much?

With SGA, it feels much more like a betrayal.

Exactly! It's not that it's a horrible romance that I would be embarrassed to watch with other people (okay, it is that at this point), but the fact that it was SGA, and it made me more than just gag, but it made me angry. Partly because of the content, and the maybe-unintentional implications above (that I'm starting to suspect may not have been unintentional at all), but also because I know they're capable of so much more if the writers actually give it some sort of effort. I've been disappointed before in episodes (see: Irresponsible, The Real World, Travelers) and OOC moments, but this one seriously pushed my buttons.

This was my happy place, dammit!!

I know! I've had everyone coming up to me, because they know I love the show going "Bill Nye was on! BILL NYE! :D" and I practically snarl back, "Bill Nye can't make up for the concussion I got FROM THAT ROMANTIC ANVIL ENDING!" and they sort of back away slowly. (Mental Note: I need to not talk about this episode with non-fen.)

I'm really hoping for a good one this week, because my faith in the Everlasting Squee has been severely shaken.

...well...after neechan writes me that Tony!whump fic...there are certain itches that need at least a little scratching...^_-.

Hrm. I agree. I think she should do it (despite my Austin Powers melodrama earlier.)

And have you ventured out much into the fic world yet? There were some really brilliant Tony!whump fic I read a few years back that I could highly recommend.

Squee, I'd love some Tony!whump recs. I've ventured a bit into the fic realm, but I've discovered that after SV and SGA, I've been totally spoiled by the level of fic quality and have become rather picky...oops :-p

Richefic (http://www.fanfiction.net/u/374030/Richefic) has a mix of longer and short stories, with fairly even characterizations. Really likes to put poor Tony through the ringer.

Kikkimax (http://www.fanfiction.net/u/617175/kikkimax) does I think mostly Kate-era stories. Long, plotty, with a good Abby-Kate friendship, oh, and Tony whump ;) "The Jagged Heart" and "Angels and Heroes" are the ones I've read, and they were very good.

Lady Anne (http://k.domaindlx.com/LdyAnne/RR.htm#NCIS) (who you might recognize from some SGA stuff) has a few NCIS stories worth checking out.

And finally, Sequitur (http://www.fanfiction.net/~sequitur), possibly ~~one of~~ the best NCIS authors I've run across. For short and cute, "Found in Translation" is very amusing, but "Rictus", a story where Tony and Gibbs meet, is a-maze-ing.

(And that's all I can remember for now, there are more, but I haven't had my coffee yet ;)

Keller seems deadest on taking away many of the characteristics that most draw me to Rodney, that make him the character I adore and this episode, more than any other, highlighted that fact for me.

At the risk of sounding... I don't know, I think this might actually be more where personal biases come in. I'm not predisposed to dislike Keller, so I didn't see her actions as negative or trying to change him--

--what the hell am I doing? I officially hate this episode now, why am I trying to defend it even a little bit? I retract above statement. No one in this episode acted like themself, Keller or Rodney.

Sorry if I'm harshing on some of your squee, McKeller/show wise, really don't wanna do that.

Oh no, god no. I would have to have really, really, really wanted a hookup for squee to be harshed. Besides, I think Martin Gero's asinine comments in that interview just sank any chance for me to have a happy, positive feeling about a relationship that I could only care about if it was written... well, basically the exact opposite of the way it has been.

I just really need to put SGA canon behind me, I think, and wallow is some good fic. You guys all right it better, anways! :-p) * big huggles*

I can't believe it, but I might actually be at this point as well. I mean, I was seriously depressed months ago that my show was ending. Now I'm just wanting them to not kill my squee in the last three episodes with this ridiculous hack writing.

Like a high school crush, where they view each other from afar, go "oh, pretty," and when they hook up, realize there's absolutely no substance to their relationship and move on.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if this strange "from afar" thing is because they're both socially inept. At least, it would make sense from what we know of both of the characters. (Oh, I know what you're going to say, I already know it ;) I mean, Keller never had a normal high school life, she never had peers her age, so I almost wonder if maybe this is just as awkward for her as it is for Rodney.

just stumbling awkwardly forward

See, if they were actually written as stumbling awkwardly forward, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I would find it believable, and probably endearing. But it's only awkward and uncomfortable for me as a viewer to see them suddenly get over all of their hangups in a matter of hours and act like they've been dating for months.

and the fact they're putting so much screen time into it when there's so little of the show left just frustrates me

Oh, I know. And I hate to defend them since they managed to push me into rant mode... but I think had they actually known 100% for sure that they weren't going to get renewed, we'd probably have more team focused episodes. They're not trying to do this to us intentionally (although sometimes I wonder)... it's just sort of happening that way.

But I still love the show! Hopefully we won't fight next week.

A friendship is a relationship. It matters. And it matters that you're going to be friends after you resolve your UST. (

Agreed on most points. Agreed on this one, too, but wanted to make special mention of it because it seems to be a trend found in other SG romances - the idea that friendship and romance are mutually exclusive. Rodney & Keller can't be friends, because then they wouldn't be romantic. Sam & Jack are a couple but Daniel is Jack's best friend, because Sam couldn't possibly be. Rodney/Katie, Teyla/Kanaan, Ronon/Keller - there's never any relationship shown between them except the romantic. There's never any bonding over mutual interests or hobbies; there's no real conversations about their relationship, about what they are to each other, what they see in each other, just love confessions/rejections.

Actually, I don't know if this is about romance, or rather the belief that men and women completely lack the grounds to be friends, and can only ever relate to one another romantically. Either way, I kinda wonder about what kind of relationships the SGA writers have with the women in their lives...

Sam & Jack are a couple but Daniel is Jack's best friend, because Sam couldn't possibly be.

Maybe there-in lies the problem. I have no problem with romance itself, but I'm not going to feel it or believe it if the people don't seem to like each other as people, rather than lust for each other. I think there are plenty of shows that show this well, how friends can transition to romance, but still be friends. It just baffles me why this seems to be an issue with the SG writers. Is it the "Big Damn Heroes" and the "Big Damn Sci-Fi/Action Show" mindset? If they get too mushy will all the college boys get turned off?

Actually, I don't know if this is about romance, or rather the belief that men and women completely lack the grounds to be friends, and can only ever relate to one another romantically.

It almost seems like that... but then you do have Teyla interacting with her teammates in a non-romantic manner. She and Rodney don't interact much, but when they do it's more like siblings than anything resembling UST. She and Ronon are so very much brother and sister (rolling her eyes at him at the beginning of "Progeny" for some reason cracks me up to this very day.) I really don't see anything romantic between her and John either, just two very close friends.

Hmm, agreed that there are platonic m-f friendships - few of them are played as strong as the m-m friendships (there's definitely more John-Rodney than Teyla-anyone, and I think there's more Ronon-John than Ronon-Teyla...) But then there's more m-f friendships than f-f friendship, definitely, so, yeah, SGA can do men and women being friends.

But friends aren't romantic, ever; there's this huge line drawn between friendship and romance. And friendship usually comes out on top - see "The Shrine" - as the more significant relationship, which maybe is why the writers are so bad at romance, because they don't actually think romance is that important? As long as you're getting sex, who cares if there's a real relationship there? Something like that? Hmm...

But then there's more m-f friendships than f-f friendship, definitely, so, yeah, SGA can do men and women being friends.

Point. They can do it, and they do do it, but they don't do it equally. I mean, I love that they do the John-Rodney stuff so well, but I wouldn't be horribly opposed to more Teyla-Ronon buddy scenes too.

But friends aren't romantic, ever; there's this huge line drawn between friendship and romance.

Point to you again. I honestly, honestly cannot think of a single instance to refute this point, especially on SGA. It seemed like they were trying to skirt that line a little in season two with both Teyla and Elizabeth with John, but the romantic/UST stuff always came off rather forced to me -- but their scenes where they weren't trying to do a "Will they? Won't they?" vibe worked well. (I'm really channeling "Long Goodbye" in this example, but I know there's another instance.) It seemed though they almost dropped it in season three.

As long as you're getting sex, who cares if there's a real relationship there?

But of course :P

I'm starting to wonder if that's what really set me off about it, is that very end bit seemed to suggest that very attitude? I don't know, it was something because I'm practically a Squeeosaurus when it comes to SGA. I mean, I liked "Inquisition" for crying out loud, and just about no one liked "Inquisition".

To be fair, a lot of TV doesn't do m-f platonic friendship at all, so I like that SGA has some, even if not as much as m-m (and pretty much no f-f friendship, which makes me a sad panda). And yeah, John with Teyla and Elizabeth worked better when they dropped the UST, but even when it was there it was mostly so subtle you could ignore it; they almost never explicitly stated the UST.

But a lot of shows that have romantic relationships will show more than the sexual attraction; they'll show the characters bonding over other things, having fun together, talking, sharing interests. While as SG seems to find this part of romance so - boring, or something? - that it's unnecessary. So you get Sam/Jack, where the show repeatedly makes the point that they have pretty much nothing in common, and that's supposed to make the romance cute or something. And now Rodney & Keller should have more in common than that, both being super-intelligent geeks, but the show almost goes out of its way not to give us anything. Keller doesn't like physics, Rodney doesn't like medicine (though he pretends to around her) - and we've been given nothing else. They both like beer?

I think this is why Keller nagging Rodney set me off. John snipes at Rodney in public too (though I can't recall him ever telling Rodney to be humble or tone it down, except in professional situations where Rodney's mouth could get them killed.) But we know John likes Rodney otherwise; we've seen them having fun together, and Rodney is assured enough of their friendship that he'll snark back to John. But this was Rodney & Keller's first date, and we haven't seen them interacting off-hours, so the sniping didn't have that base of solid affection. Certainly Rodney didn't think there was; he meekly folds under Keller's berating, like he doesn't to John's.

BAHAHA, your icon!

(and pretty much no f-f friendship, which makes me a sad panda).

Sam and Teyla need girl time too! ;_; I gave them the points for effort in that one episode of SG-1 with Sam and Vala's girl time, even though it came off a little more like a guy's idea of female bonding than actual female bonding.

But a lot of shows that have romantic relationships will show more than the sexual attraction; they'll show the characters bonding over other things, having fun together, talking, sharing interests. While as SG seems to find this part of romance so - boring, or something? - that it's unnecessary.

This is so very true. I'm not exactly a romantic at heart, but I do find myself enjoying those shows where the characters act like real people who have something in common more than the bedroom time. The thing I like about shows like Chuck, the OC, and Big Bang Theory is that while the romance is intended, the actual tangible relationship between the characters -- not just the "romance" -- is explored. It's not always buddy-buddy friendship, but it's not some weird strict division of labor between friendship and romance.

And now Rodney & Keller should have more in common than that, both being super-intelligent geeks, but the show almost goes out of its way not to give us anything. Keller doesn't like physics, Rodney doesn't like medicine (though he pretends to around her) - and we've been given nothing else. They both like beer?

Beer is good. But yeah, they really haven't given us anything -- I think a lot of it is based on extrapolation. If, sometime in the far future where I can forgive the relationship for being conceived by Martin Gero (I really need to get over that), and wanted to write something in which their "relationship" is addressed -- I would have to dig deep and do a lot of sorting in my mind to make it work within the mental framework I have of the characters. Normally, I'm okay with this--but right now I just can't be bothered.

I am astonished by how much I enjoy the romance of Big Bang Theory! I recently got into that, and yeah - I adore Penny, and even though she and Leonard probably are incompatible, I don't really mind their UST. Which says a lot, considering how much UST can grate on me. But yes, it helps that it's a real relationship beyond the UST - it helps, too, that Penny is a fully developed character; she's a believable human being, and she has relationships that aren't about romance (Penny + Sheldon is some of the funniest stuff of the show! They really need to take over the world together.)

That's one of the nice things about getting into NCIS now, too, there's female characters that I really like, on their own and in relation to the other characters. Heck, at this point I'm so fond of all the relationships that they could probably make a 'ship among any of the mains, and I wouldn't freak out...

...Geeze. SGA is just bad at writing female characters. I keep thinking that I've got some weird misogynist tendencies, and then I watch all these shows where I love the girls...it's not me, SGA, it's you! (Though they are dynamite at picking incredibly charismatic, likable actresses...I love Sam at least 70% because of Amanda Tapping, and Rachel Luttrell makes Teyla. I feel sorry for Jewel Staite, she's awesome and she deserves better than this!)

But yeah, they really haven't given us anything -- I think a lot of it is based on extrapolation.

As far as I can tell, even the folks who do like McKeller more like it for the potential (Rodney finally getting married like he thinks he wants) than what we've actually seen...because we've seen so little. And yeah, sometimes I'm willing to fill in the details, but this 'ship has been such an ill-conceived hack-job that I'm just gonna skip it. XP

~~Martin Gero is a moron!~~

I recently got into that, and yeah - I adore Penny, and even though she and Leonard probably are incompatible, I don't really mind their UST. Which says a lot, considering how much UST can grate on me.

I think what I liked about it, is that it's not what I normally consider UST. For a long time, it's very one-sided romantically, completely on Leonard's end. And usually, that really grates on me, but it's just so well done! It definitely helps that they show that Leonard is aware that his attraction is unlikely to lead anywhere, and acknowledges that at times it's borderline creepy (and then has him back off). But he still tries, despite the differences and the odds stacked against them, because he seems to genuinely like her as a person, not just because she's a pretty girl. (I'm not sure if you guys are completely caught up, so I don't want to venture into any spoiler territory.)

it helps, too, that Penny is a fully developed character; she's a believable human being, and she has relationships that aren't about romance

Oh, I adore Penny, and I wasn't sure if I would at first. She really is believable, and the writers have been awesome in making her avoid the oblivious-and-unintentionally-slightly-cruel-pretty-girl trap that seems to happen in the unrequited romances. She's smart, not in the scary smart way like the boys, but in her own way. But she doesn't (usually) let it intimidate her, and she also seems to enjoy their company, even joining in on the geeky fun.

(Penny + Sheldon is some of the funniest stuff of the show!

They make me snorfle SO LOUD. As I said earlier, I'm not sure how caught up you guys are, but there was an episode a few weeks ago that just about killed me ded. It's a toss-up to whether Penny or Sheldon is my favorite character, but their scenes together are usually my favorites.

They really need to take over the world together.)

BWAHA! YES! YES THEY DO!

That's one of the nice things about getting into NCIS now, too... they could probably make a 'ship among any of the mains, and I wouldn't freak out...

This is definitely a good year to get into it. I got addicted on the season two finale, and so have had to do the "wait and see" on where they're going with the characters. (I was really wary of Jenny and Ziva when they came in, but was completely in love with Ziva by the end of season three.) I don't think I ever really want any of the characters to hook up, mostly because I love how their relationships play out now. I've noticed that the tone of the show and the relationships have changed since Mark Harmon took lead of the show's direction, to this really nice "team as family" vibe they've been doing so well this season.

...Geeze. SGA is just bad at writing female characters.

I was going to argue with this, but I'm sort of grasping at straws. I think they have some really good moments in between some really mediocre to sometimes really bad writing. Poor Elizabeth was all over the map, Keller is a major point of contention in fandom right now, "Whispers" is another thing entirely, and I had a really hard time "getting" Teyla up until these past two seasons. But, one positive thing SGA did do was make me actively like Sam, rather than on SG-1 where I either passively liked her, or in some seasons/episodes, really resented her presence. (But I absolutely adored Vala, to the point where she replaced Daniel as my favorite character. So it could be limited to just SGA.)

As far as I can tell, even the folks who do like McKeller more like it for the potential

I've had a few people tell me that normally they don't like romance on the show, but they were really excited about this pairing and direction with the show. They did seem to really enjoy "Brain Storm", whereas it just pushed me over the edge from a vaguely hopeful apathy into actual disdain.

And yeah, sometimes I'm willing to fill in the details, but this 'ship has been such an ill-conceived hack-job that I'm just gonna skip it. XP

Capsized and has you scrambling for the lifeboats? (Or maybe that's just me.)

~~Martin Gero is a moron!~~

Thank you! It's amazing how saying that always seems to lower my blood pressure.

We've seen all of BBT, so no fear of spoilers! And yes, yes, and joy, to everything you say. It's a sitcom, but they're all such real people (...a little too real, maybe. Most of their geek-fan conversations, I've had with my friends. Sometimes almost word-for-word, like when ranking the Star Trek movies. My one quibble with the show is that there are we female geeks out here - represent!)

& yeah, I didn't know if I'd like Penny, because she is so blonde, and the pretty sweet next-door neighbor is just so cliche - but she's so funny and awesome and as quirky as they are, in different ways (I love the utter disaster of her apartment. ...umm, again, because it's a little too familiar!) And she handles the boys so well - I really liked what happened with her and Leonard, that it didn't work because they are that different, but she really does care for him a lot as a friend. And then Leonard is such a nice guy - not a "nice guy" but the real deal (I'm way too fond of the poor boy, mostly because I feel sorry for him. Also because the glasses and the hoodies are too cute - actually of all the guys I've seen on TV, Leonard would probably be the one I'd like to date, he's rather my real-life type ^^) I'm happy he's found himself a girlfriend now, even if it might not work out, what with Sheldon's "help" (and I'm happy, too, that she looks like a real woman; she isn't Hollywood-perfect but she's still considered very attractive and that's just very, yay, show!)

But Sheldon! Is hysterical in so many ways! (and one lab accident away from being a supervillain! XDD) And seriously, he and Penny need to take over the world!! (The recent ep, where they're at war - SO AWESOME!)

--Ahh, I haven't bounced about BBT with anyone before, pardon my squee! We did amuse ourselves in "Brainstorm" (one of the few bright spots of the ep XP) imagining that Tunney had invited Sheldon, and Sheldon having the TOTAL MENTAL BREAKDOWN that the pseudoscience would induce in him (how bad is it that a sitcom has better science than a scifi show? But seriously, BBT scratches my technobabble itch even when SGA fails! ...yes, I have a technobabble kink so bad...)

So, yes, BBT = <3

And NCIS also = <333! Ahhh I adore Ziva - I liked her humor from the start but it took me 'til s4 to really fall in love with her (it was when she realized Tony was going to the hospital secretly, and started researching Y.Pestis 'cuz she was worried about him, so sweet!) Now that Jenny Shepard's gone I love everyone, makes it a fun show to watch. Especially with the family vibe! (That's the thing, the writers right now have been hitting so many buttons that I trust them - I don't *want* any actual 'shipping (I pretty much never want a romantic 'ship more than I want friendship!), but if for some reason they decided to step, say, the Tony/Ziva up a notch, I wouldn't flip out and kill people. Which, uh, can happen otherwise. But right now I'm very satisfied with the TEAM TEAM TEAM feel, and Gibbs's "kids" all running around being idiots together!)

And then, SGA - phooey, show! Look at all the fan-love I have to give, and you're depriving yourself of it! (stupid Gero XP) But Rodney and Team have my <333 now & always, whatever they do - I refuse to let The Man bring me down! (even if they do suck with female characters. Sometimes they do great but I swear it's by accident - well, except Teyla with Torren, I actually really love how they handled that storyline, from start to now. But otherwise, yeeeeeah, they're all over the place.)(I actually really liked Sam in later SG-1 - when the Sam/Jack stuff stopped and she was all team-y with the boys. And Vala! Is <333 too! She didn't quite replace Daniel as my fave, but it was close...actually Daniel/Vala is about the only SG pairing that hasn't made me want to tear out my hair, and then it...didn't work out. Or something. What the heck, show? How can you possibly be SO bad at this!?)

Oh well, I still <3 you anyway, SGA! Rodney forever! ^_^

My one quibble with the show is that there are we female geeks out here - represent!

There are! But I kind of wonder if the boys wouldn't do the creepy fanboy-at-a-convention thing, where they find the geeky girl and just sort of stare at them. Kind of like having a double-X chromosome and walking into a comic store.

I'm happy he's found himself a girlfriend now... (and I'm happy, too, that she looks like a real woman

I was just thinking this yesterday XD I don't know how long she's going to last, but I really like her character -- quirky, and fun and likable, as opposed to Leslie Winkle (at least for me). I hope she sticks around for a little while longer. She definitely brings an interesting dynamic to the group.

(and one lab accident away from being a supervillain! XDD)

BEST. LINE. EVER. XD

The recent ep, where they're at war - SO AWESOME!

OMG YES! That was the one where I was puddle of laughter on the floor. "But secretly inside, you'll always know that laundry night... is Saturday night." With Leonard stuck in the middle, snickering a little whenever Penny one-ups Sheldon.

How bad is it that a sitcom has better science than a scifi show?

I heard that they employ a physicist to fact check all of their science and technobabble! While I think, and I mean this in all seriousness, I heard that the SGA writers use like Wikipedia to do theirs. Of course, BBT is a network show, so they can afford a little extra in that department.

(it was when she realized Tony was going to the hospital secretly, and started researching Y.Pestis 'cuz she was worried about him, so sweet!)

It was so cute! I really liked at how the end of the season where she's still concerned (her instincts were right on the money), and Ducky's trying to give her romantic counsel, she looks at him and tells him that her partner is in trouble, and it has nothing to do with romance. (Which I believed her, I thought she might have burgeoning feelings for Tony, but her concern seemed to be strictly about his welfare.)

Now that Jenny Shepard's gone I love everyone, makes it a fun show to watch.

I started to like Jenny at the end of season three, but that was pretty much obliterated in S4 with her Frog Hunt. But Vance! Oh! I love Vance so much! What is it about stuffy bureaucrats that make such likable, effective leaders?

they decided to step, say, the Tony/Ziva up a notch, I wouldn't flip out and kill people.

When I stop to think about it, I probably wouldn't stop watching the show if Tony and Ziva made a hookup, because I'd be interested to see what they did with it. I've rather enjoyed the pairings on the show, like Gibbs with his Army lieutenant, and Abby with her forensic buddy (his name is escaping me.) I do think, unless it was just knock-my-socks-awesome, I'd probably get less enjoyment just because I love their relationship so much as it is now.
but it would probably take my enjoyment of it down a few notches.

and Gibbs's "kids" all running around being idiots together!

Oh yes! The squabbling, the bickering, the jealousy when someone else gets the attention. The episode with their temporary newbie agent was so cute! Team ftw!

I actually really liked Sam in later SG-1 - when the Sam/Jack stuff stopped and she was all team-y with the boys

I think I probably enjoyed her more in the later seasons, I was really happy she came back during season nine, but there were moments of season ten that just really grated on me for some reason. I'm curious now, though, if I'll get the same reaction watching them after her stint on SGA. While I love Woolsey to death (obviously by the Crush Rating system), I really did come to enjoy her contribution to the show by the end of season four.

Daniel/Vala...and then it didn't work out....How can you possibly be SO bad at this!?

I don't know, because that was my exact reaction too! It's the only pairing I had ever sought out fic for, but that scene in "Unending" just made me go "...ick" from the extreme OOCness on both their parts. Of course, it was almost made up for by the cuteness of OldCouple!Daniel/Vala. But now I'd rather there not be any other canon pairing between the two, just because I don't trust them.

You know, I think you just said everything I was thinking about this. I actually like the McKay/Keller thing, but I'm still afraid to watch this. I remember on SG-1 I liked Daniel/Vala quite a bit too, all the way up until Unending, and that episode kinda ruined the pairing for me. I'm afraid I'll have the same reaction to this.

I have never ever seen a show where the writers are so, so bad at romantic relationships. *shakes head* Almost every single relationship they've tried has made me cringe, if not immediately than eventually. With the exception of Teyla/Kanaan, but I'm sure that's only because he hasn't been onscreen enough. *grin* I was hoping McKeller would be the exception, but while I like the concept, I think it was badly handled in The Shrine (as you've said) and Tracker, and now this.... *sigh*

Oh, don't be afraid to watch it. At the very least, they weren't radically out-of-character like Daniel and Vala were in Unending. They're just... uncomfortably out-of-character in the very last little bit to me. (But that's to me and my reading on the characters, others might disagree.)

With the exception of Teyla/Kanaan, but I'm sure that's only because he hasn't been onscreen enough.

Oh, I love Teyla/Kanaan! I'd love him to get more screen time, but as you say, not if they're going to make me feel like this. And strangely enough, even though they completely wrecked the hook-up process, I hold out this hope that maybe, maybe they can still make it work on screen. As we've seen with Teyla and Kanaan, they can do established relationships well. Maybe they just don't know how to write the transition between point A and point B.

BRAIN TWINS (though you get the more articulate brain, obviously).

I endorse this checklist for President.

I don't think "articulate" has ever been used to describe me before ;)

And your icon! *dies*

Right now I'm ten minutes into the episode and I'm not sure I can watch any more of this. I just watched Keller being introduced to two old 'pals' of Rodney and she laughed when they made their inappropriate and rude comments and then later chides Rodney for not being humble. What do these two see in each other? What?? At least Rodney was honest about asking her, in his own words: an attractive woman on his arm makes him look less like a loser. But what does Keller see in Rodney? So far she has criticized every aspect of his character and told him THREE times (in ten minutes! Including credits!) she's not interested in physics. And why does she keep calling going to a physics conference together a date?! She's accompanying him to an event. If they go out for dinner later, THAT's the date.

Okay. Sorry, I'll finish watching this and let you know the outcome. I hope it gets better than this.

*aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand done*

Well, I didn't hate it entirely. I could have done without the inappropriate Gero jokes over a guy's near dead frozen body and I wondered why none of the ladies present put on a coat when things started to freeze (if it gets down to 40 degrees, I'd be wrapping myself in table clothes if I didn't bring a coat) and I still see zilch McKeller (I second your point 1-5), but... WOW, I have to say, David Hewlett looked exceptionally handsome this episode. I don't know if it was the tux or if he just looked reeeeeally good next to Dave Foley, but wow. :)

WOW, I have to say, David Hewlett looked exceptionally handsome this episode. I don't know if it was the tux or if he just looked reeeeeally good next to Dave Foley, but wow. :)

No, the episode wasn't all bad! It was actually enjoyable except for some parts. (What is with Gero and his bad jokes? I mean there's bad, groan-inducing and "...dude, that was not cool.") Rodney looked very dashing in his tux -- not so unlike a Canadian James Bond. All he needed was a martini! (That he would choke on, and promptly put down and try to wave off like he'd meant to do that all along.)

and I still see zilch McKeller (I second your point 1-5)

See, the thing is I can see it, and I did see it. I can still see it even. But the love confessions and the airplane scene pinged seriously OOC for me. Actually, as I've been typing and snipping my long rambly replies, trying to explain exactly why it does... I think I've found the simplest way to explain why the love confessions are so damn awkward and just unbelievable. Actually, it's a common affliction in Sci-Fi Media in general--

The Dreaded George Lucas Love Confession (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GeorgeLucasLoveStory).

Seriously, this is like Attack of the Clones, where the "I love you" is so out-of-the-blue and "Uh... where the hell did that come from? And isn't that basically the exact opposite of what you said a few minutes ago?" that you wonder if someone did a Jedi Mind Trick (but forgot to do so on the viewing audience. Stupid little details.) It's not that it's unbelievable that the characters would say it, it's unbelievable the characters would say it then, and in the manner that they do.

Could Padme in fact love Anakin as they're going out to die on Planet XYZ? Sure she can. But will she say it, looking deeply and soulfully in his eyes, without any of the eloquence we've come to associate with the character? Not really.

It's not a perfect example... but it's the best I have at the moment.

ETA: Missing words and VERY IMPORTANT^TM link.

The dreaded George Lucas Love Confession

*screams with laughter* Thank you for that link. ( Bwhahahaah.).

Can we send it to Martin Gero please? Because he is ecstatic about the Love Confession on the plane. Best thing he's ever written! (http://stargate.mgm.com/news_detail.php?id=117http://stargate.mgm.com/news_detail.php?id=117) Apparently [quote] "For five years, we didn’t even know it, but all Rodney wanted was for someone to tell him that they loved him in an unconditional way." [unquote]

Yes. Plane sex is unconditional love. And Rodney's team and Elizabeth never loved Rodney unconditionally, they only ever wanted him for his ~~body~~ brains.

Aha.

Thank you for that link.

Beware of TVTropes.com, it is very addictive, and you can lose hours of your life there without realizing it XD

Best thing he's ever written!

Wow... way to not prove me wrong about your creepy obsession with Jewel Staite, Gero. I believe my Sim relationship with him just dropped into the red after reading that.

Yes. Plane sex is unconditional love. And Rodney's team and Elizabeth never loved Rodney unconditionally, they only ever wanted him for his ~~body~~ brains.

...

...

...you know what? Screw being nice. He brought this on himself.

SNARK ALERT

But you see, their love was conditional. The condition was "no sex", and I can see how a man who has always found the meaning in his life through his accomplishments and later saving millions of lives would find that an unbearable way to live. Certainly it was no way to be loved. Visibly, it left him an empty shell of a man. I mean, the original ending in "Tao of Rodney", as he's on his death bed after he utters the line "You love me?", was followed up with the question, "Does this mean I get one last blowjob before I ascend?" And there was a resounding, "hell no!" from everyone, and then Rodney turned all glowy and said, "Screw you guys, I'm going home!" and floated off to go find his one true love who didn't put conditions on their feelings, and would make him feel as good on the outside as ~~he/she~~ she did on the inside.

And for some bizarre reason, MGM/NBC/Sci-Fi didn't think that would fly with audiences, so instead Rodney decides to accept his team's oh-so-conditional-with-strings-attached-love and stayed on this mortal plane of existence. But secretly he was waiting. For that one ~~orgasm~~ ~~person~~ love that would make him whole, complete. That would validate his existence as a human being and fill his empty shell with a warm glow that he could never attain from ascension. Luckily, Martin Gero saw his plight and gave him use of a private jet in "Brain Storm" and lobotomized another character in order for Rodney to reach his full potential. At ten thousand feet no less. Oh, and Keller was there too.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

The Stargate Romance Rant... it's been brewing for a while now.

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Part One... (I got long winded.)

Re: Part One... (I got long winded.)

Re: Part One... (My part 2...I got long-winded as well...OOps! :-P)

I DID IT AGAIN (part one)

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Re: I DID IT AGAIN (part one)

Re: I DID IT AGAIN (part one)

Re: I DID IT AGAIN (part one)

I DID IT AGAIN (part two)

Part Two

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