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Late last night, about 18K into my Big Bang monster, I realized something that made me stop and boggle a little: There's a startling lack of female characters in my cast.

I think there have been maybe three females that have cropped up in the entire fic, and they've all been minor bit characters: one a waitress, one a secretary, and the HR director. When I looked at that, I squirmed a little, because no, that's not stereotypical at all.

Then the more I thought about it, the more unsettled I became. Honestly, I don't think many people would be reading it and suddenly go "Hey wait! Where are all the women? This is crap!". (Who does that, though?) However it started thinking about the stuff I've written in the past, and how many stories (both fic and original) where I have a woman with a strong lead role -- and I've kind of come up short. I mean, I have one long series of original stories in my head that's told by a female, but I don't think it counts seeing as it's not on paper.

But now I'm just kind of wondering, idly what this says about me. Obviously, it's something I need to work on in the future, along with more setting and character description. I do seem to have a much harder time climbing into female characters' heads than my guys, but is that because they're so much more fleshed out? Or is it because it's that much harder to write a female character that's accepted for who she is without being accused of being a Mary Sue?

Oh, well. I'm sure at least one or two more women will pop up in the course of the story. Maybe I'll write some Teyla fic or something as penance after all of this is done.

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I think there's a two-fold thing. I don't think anyone would deny that Stargate sometimes has issues with female characters, although I think they're aware of and are trying to tackle in S5. They'll probably make a hash of it, but hey, they're trying.

But I do think the other problem comes for women writing women, and trying not to make them Mary Sues. I don't write women into my stories very often, and I'm always nervous when I do. A man can be very similar to me in character but still not be me because he's the wrong gender. I have 3 female OCs in my Torchwood writing, 2 of whom are based on friends and 1 of whom is sort of based on my grandmother.

Also, I grew up reading all the "boy's books" (I started on James Bond at the age of 12 and haven't looked back since ;)), so male characters just seem to come more naturally, somehow. Hopefully if it's something I'm aware of, like you, it's something I can work on :)

I would not deny Stargate's issues with female characters, and I definitely feel that the writer's don't understand what the concept of a Mary Sue is (which on SG-1 Sam skirted the line with a lot. She was better about it on SGA, but maybe that was because she was in the background a lot). Still, I love my show, and I'm always willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because hey, they're trying. (And they fill my life with squee!)

The Mary Sue fear is like this double-edged sword. I mean, I like the fact that people are aware that characters need flaws. However there's this knee-jerk reaction to any non-canon female character automatically not being "good enough".

I've been trying a new approach at least when I start out writing a new female OC if I'm having trouble with her personality. I'll either take some traits of a male character who has a similar role/function in the story and try capturing their voice a little. I've been finding it helps me get past the initial Mary Sue nervousness and they seem to find their own voice quickly enough. It's kind of a quick and dirty trick, because it's not truly drafting them from the ground up. I'm not sure it makes them any more "real" than a Mary Sue, but I at least get something written, which is my main goal in the rough draft.

I also grew up liking the "boys" books and toys much more fun than the girly stuff they kept trying to throw at me. American Girl books? No, thanks, just pass me the "Castle in the Attic", Ninja Turtles, and other adventure fare.

First off, don't worry in the fanfic realm. Truth is, SGA's female characters are just not that interesting. I think they have potential (and, currently, Keller is my latest hope for a fully fleshed, flawed, funny female, though that may not come for fore...), but when the source material doesn't give you much to work with, it's hard to write them.

Now, if this were original writing, then, yes, I'd say there's an element of concern. BUT, funnily, I'm running across the same issue right now--the same concern. And it's fear. I'm afraid that my women won't be real. I'm afraid they'll be Mary Sues. I'm afraid that I won't do them justice. All this makes them harder to write than the men, though, really, none of those reasons make sense. Because, after all, why should those same fears not also be connected to my male characters?

I really don't know.

But still -- buck up! You'll throw some more women in, and all will be well. And, sure, write a Teyla fic. Or a Weir fic. Or even a Carter or Keller fic. See what comes out...

I just find it interesting that I so often see the criticism that "___ needs to hire more women writers", and here I am, a woman writer, and I have trouble with female characters and apparently gender stereotypes.

I have every confidence your women will come out great! I absolutely adored your cast of characters in "Desert Orkids" (which I, um, may have forgotten to leave feedback on. Whoops.) I've found that using people as a basis for a character gives them a good base to start from, and they flow more naturally. You're thinking about their flaws and their internal workings, which I think is the pitfall of a lot of Mary Sue writers.

Heck, I have an OC from my original fandom (that I'm still not naming out of embarrassment) that's a classic Mary Sue from what I can tell, but people seem to love her. But they're a weird fandom, so I kind of just look the other way.

I'd like to write more Weir fic, but I... I don't find her boring, but I guess maybe she just doesn't really engage me. I just about fell asleep during "The Real World" which had some nice elements to it. I love using her as a supporting cast, but not really as a main character.

Keller has really grown on me in the past few months. I think I really started to actively like her in "Trio", and rewatching some of the earlier episodes her restrained behavior is actually kind of endearing. I've been wanting to write a tag to "Vengeance" (Rodney whumping, of course), that deals with her trying to fill Carson's shoes and leads to her talk to Elizabeth in "First Strike". She has a lot of potential, I'm really hoping they choose to explore it in season five.

Teyla... eludes me. For no good reason. It's kind of sad because I've really been wanting to write something with her but I can't seem to nail down her voice.

To be fair to the fic I'm writing is AU and set on Earth, so that cuts out half of Team Sheppard right there. It's also told completely from John and Rodney's perspective, who are very isolated at this point in their lives and hardly interact with anyone at all, much less women. So that might actually be part of the problem right there. Maybe it's not me, just the characters?

Yes, I do actually read books and notice when there are few or no women. This started in grad school, when a prof announced, "In the whole of The Canterbury Tales, there isn't a single scene where two women speak to each other in direct discourse." I went holy frack--how could I not have noticed? I'd first read the CT as as sophomore in college! I'd have to modify her statement a little, actually; in the Franklin's Tale, Canacee has a long conversation with a female bird, using a magic ring to communicate with the bird. But two human women? Nope. Never happens. (Women do talk to each other in Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde, but there's almost no direct discourse between them again!)

So I notice these things. I think I've done okay in my own fic, but I have also found myself very reluctant to create female OC's because, as you say, I don't want to write a Mary Sue, and I don't want to write a non-Mary Sue who gets mistaken for one! I think my original female characters have been rather poorly fleshed out because I shy away from them a bit. Of course, my male OCs aren't any great shakes either.

I find it easiest to write for the characters I've gotten from the show. I do like to write Sam, and occasionally Janet, but I have trouble with SGA: I'm not exactly sure what to do with Teyla or Elizabeth! I've written Kate Heightmeyer in two stories, and I thought I got her pretty well, but a couple of my commenters have told me they like my version much better than the one on the show! Um, but I thought I was writing the one on the show! (I also got one of those comments about Gwen in my one Torchwood story: "I wish the show writers wrote her like this." Okayyyy.)

I guess this is long-winded agreement that the show doesn't give us the same depth of characterization with female characters, and I think we as women and writers want to do better than that but are afraid of messing it up.

But sometimes, a story comes to you that's just a guy story. You can write--what? Not a girl story, certainly not a chick story--some female equivalent later.

PS I'm also not sure of what to make of the fact that, of the six icons I get as a total freeloader on LJ, I have:
Jack and Daniel
Rodney and Carson
me and Weird Al Yankovic (yay!)
a helmet (male armor, definitely)
two depictions of me as a warrior queen

I generally use J&D for comments on SG-1 fandom and R&C for SGA, but when I'm replying to posts on or stories about Sam, or Teyla, or Elizabeth, I'm not always sure whether to use the guys or not!

My only female icons are me! Does that mean I'm a narcissist? (Disclaimer: you couldn't actually use either of them to pick me out of a line-up. :-) )

Hey, with only six icons you got to be picky! There's a neat little trick, I think I heard it from friendshipper, where you can use "general" keywords to name your icons and swap them out if you get to your max. Of course, I just keep buying up icon space because I don't have to pay rent, so the money needs to go somewhere.

(Disclaimer: you couldn't actually use either of them to pick me out of a line-up. :-) )

Drat! There goes that brilliant idea.

I remember hearing that about "Canterbury Tales"! I never was able to get too far into it because I really struggle with old English. The women definitely get the short stick in classic literature. Heck, there were only like two women in Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein", and they were pretty much background. I don't recall them having many interactions within the story, but I think the main focus of the book was more of the undead monster.

Teyla is hard, man, and I respect anyone who can get into her head. Elizabeth I can only really tackle if I approach her from a "Mom" perspective, which makes me feel a little sad because she was the expedition's leader, not their mother. But yes, I know what you mean about those comments. You're basing a character on what you see in the show; they just might be tuning into a different program it seems sometimes ;)

Often the stories that come to me are still male-centric, even my original stuff. Most of them feature a strong friendship between two male characters, going through the plot together. One day I'll take up the charge of the female cause--after Big Bang.

For some reason, male friendship gives me warm fuzzies in a way that female friendship doesn't. Don't know why, but it affects my writing and, often, my reading.

I would like to have a long conversation with you about feminism, fiction-writing and the fact that, among many other things, "strong female leads" are harder to write right, especially since the Hollywood industry decided that an independent, strong loud-spoken woman has to be everywhere... and that's that. That is to say, they settle for making them just independent, strong and loud-spoken, but how about all the other personality traits that male characters get? Nerdy, nagging, jump-first-think-later, spontaneous, humane, generous, selfish... In the effort of creating a female lead that won't get shot down by feminist groups, they create a female version of what you would NEVER put up with if it were a guy. They don't have to worry about this with the men, so they can make them of all types and personalities available. Male characters in TV and movies are often written far deeper, while the female lead will just be an all-around competent mary sue. It discourages writing fiction about them.

I think my reply to everything you said is: WORD.

Spunky sassy women are fine and dandy, as long as they have depth. Many of the ones you've mentioned are basically on-screen Mary Sues, because in my opinion what makes a Sue a Sue, whether they be male or female, is that lack of depth. A character that HAS that will automatically have quirks, flaws, and failings that they overcome within the course of the story to achieve the goal of the plot.

We were watching the fourth season of The OC this week, and I was struck by how much I adored several of the female characters that were absolutely horrid in the previous season. My absolute favorite of them was Taylor Townsend, who had a self-admitted emotional addiction problem that had her cling to anyone who was nice to her. In one episode she wound up stalking her own boyfriend in progressively wackier and hilarious ways. It was all of her problems and hang ups, but this desire to try and do better (sometimes failing miserably) that made her a joy to watch on screen.

Compare her to, oh, Elizabeth Swann of Pirates of the Caribbean, who's main problem is getting kidnapped by pirates and kissing Johnny Depp. All of her conflict is external, as opposed to the rest of the cast. She doesn't grate on my nerves, but I far enjoyed the scenes between Jack and Will than the ones between her and... anyone else. Of course, you can overboard with the flaws and make a character completely unlikable. It's a balancing act I guess.

Have you watched Road to El Dorado? Or Dreamworks' Sinbad?
All slash or slashy inclinations aside, ask yourself this: Could the movies have worked without the women?

And that's what I'm talking about. A character is unimportant when it can be replaced either by a trinket, a perfectly unimportant extra, or altogether removed without damaging the plot. This isn't perfect math, but it's usually the case with some female characters.

Let's suffer a bit.
Let's think of the Batman & Robin movie. A truly horrible, yes, but Batgirl. Tell me now: couldn't they have beaten Uma Thurman and the Terminator without her help? You bet your ass they could.

An example of the opposite would be characters like the one you mentioned. Depth makes them interesting. They make the story richer by being there.

It's been years since I saw Road to El Dorado, but I do remember disliking the female character there. Never saw Sinbad, because I thought animated Catherine Zeta-Jones-Douglas was in the whole movie, and I really just don't care for "pasted on" romance to try and lure a few young girls into the theatre.

when it can be replaced either by a trinket

I'm sorry, I'm laughing at the thought of these "spunky females" in these movies being replaced by an equally spunky broom or dust mop and having the same effect on the storyline.

"Oh noes! Dusty Mop's been kidnapped by the bad guys! We have to save her!"

In return, Dusty Mop thanks the hero by spewing dust all over them.

Okay, crack aside, back the original discussion. Yes, both Road to El Dorado, I think, and Batman and Robin could have worked without the spunky heroines.

I will clarify that I mean Marina from Sinbad - the spunky heroine. Not so much as Eris the goddess of Chaos. SHE MADE THE MOVIE. Why? Because the woman was the plot. If you remove her, there is no plot. She was awesome.

And come now, seriously: Remove our heroine for an equally precious object.
Take pirates of the Caribbean. Imagine if, say, some personal keepsake of Will had been taken away by Barbosa. Something really personal. Can't you imagine him getting all caught up going "Damn pirates, I hate pirates, I'm GETTING IT BACK!"?

Ahaha! They took Will's lucky rabbit's foot, and he's getting it back! Of course, it's such a lucky animal foot that both Norrington and Will's partner-in-piracy Jack Sparrow both are drawn towards it as well.

I will probably schedule a watching of the Sinbad movie... or just Tivo it or something. My brain is going to be mush by the time August rolls around.

On the other hand, one should clarify that the issue isn't with women. The issue is with the way the industry portrays them.

Try an example:
Shepherd.
Now, make him a woman, with the exact same story, the exact same dysfunctions and faults but also the same sort of spunk and heroism. It actually works... so long as you keep all the good and the BAD things about Shepherd there. Same with McKay. Don't change anything, don't make girl-Shepherd into a MORE EMOTIONAL SHEPHERD or anything like that.

On the other hand, try to imagine what it would have been like if the head of the SGA team had been an INDEPENDENT WOMAN who will sass it up, but deep down is worried that you'll think her vulnerable, and (secretly, always secretly) is looking for that elusive kiss-kiss action. Keep in mind, that's all they'll give you - not unlike the original plan for Samantha Carter ("I R WOMAN IN THE ARMY!")

The problem with the way women are written is that they're written with their gender on their greeting card. Literally:

MARY S. SUE
WOMAN, Heroine

They do this just in CASE you forget that, golly, that thing has a bajingo but she sure can fight, even though(!) her sexual organs are on the inside. And then when they try to do the opposite, they make asexual or butch women, because you can't leave your gender issues behind without leaving your whole gender in the closet (this usually ends up playing out by having our G.I.Jane have a SOFT CORE that she dares not reveal.) Tsk.

There was actually a really nice story someone wrote that genderswapped both John and Rodney's roles, but didn't give them those hang ups. They still came across as almost the same characters, but there were differences due to the fact that they were of a different gender. They couldn't talk to each other any better as females than males, but they still had the same level of depth. Wish I could remember the name.

But yes, I think that is the problem with a lot of stuff. Not only things written for younger audiences, but in general. They focus entirely too much on a character's gender, rather than the character itself.

They do this just in CASE you forget that, golly, that thing has a bajingo but she sure can fight, even though(!) her sexual organs are on the inside. And then when they try to do the opposite, they make asexual or butch women, because you can't leave your gender issues behind without leaving your whole gender in the closet

Actually, there's an upcoming episode of SGA that should be very interesting in light of this discussion, but I will talk to you about that on gmail chat to keep spoilers from leaking into the discussion.

I'm at work and haven't read through the whole discussion, so hopefully I'm not repeating too many points that have been raised already!

Like others have pointed out, though, in fanfic, you're pretty much stuck with the characterization and world that's been given to us. In SGA, I like writing Teyla as a viewpoint character (in fact, I'm pretty sure she's the one I've written the most aside from John and Rodney) but I write next to no Carson or Elizabeth because I'm just not comfortable with their voices. With some fandoms, you're just gonna be stuck with a stable of female characters that don't do a whole lot for you, and from the sound of things, that's the case with you and SGA. And I can't blame you. It's awfully hard to write a character you aren't interested in - you basically have to make them an OC in order to write them, and at that point, they might as well *be* an OC. (That's usually the case with me and Elizabeth, when she's in anything other than a background role. I can write an Elizabeth I really enjoy writing, but she's basically an OC.)

I have certain kinds of characters that I keep coming back to, regardless of fandom. Usually with me, it's smart, sarcastic, funny characters, and emotionally bruised characters, or preferably both at once, and a lot of fandoms just don't offer characters like that among the female cast. Of the fandoms in which I've written actively, there's only one (Dragonball Z I know, shut up) in which my favorite character to write, hands down, was a woman, and - oh wow, I just realized, for the first time ever, that she was a female Rodney! Anyway, she was the *kind* of character that I like to write (funny, brusque, temperamental, blazingly intelligent, always coming up with crazy ideas) and she had a very interesting life to draw upon, even if she was mostly written as a caricature in canon itself.

So it depends on what you have to work with, and it depends on what you find interesting to begin with. There's definitely a different tone to male friendships than female friendships, and speaking just for myself, I find male friendships fascinating in a way that female ones, for the most part, aren't - the lure of the exotic, perhaps? I don't think there's the slightest thing wrong with that.

But I also don't want to be a one-note writer, and I make a real effort in my writing to incorporate little-used characters in addition to the usual suspects (giving Ford a strong role in a lot of my AUs, for example) or to cast my OCs in atypical ways (for example, writing a male nurse, or a female airman, in a bit part) rather than sticking with what's easy - which, let's face it, is putting John and Rodney in a locked room and letting them snark at each other for 20,000 words. *g* In fact, some of my fic, in this and other fandoms, is deliberately aimed at trying to get inside the heads of characters I *do* find difficult to write - that, or filling a gap where fandom doesn't seem to be going. For example, my first long SGA fic ("That Which Is Broken") was written in part because there was a lot of fic that dealt with John and Rodney's rift after "Trinity", but next to nothing that addressed Teyla and Ronon's possibly even MORE severe clash in the same episode, and I wanted to deal with the fallout from that. And I didn't have a very good understanding of either Teyla or Ronon in canon, so I wanted to work with them a little bit and try to get a feel for how they thought.

Oh my god, now that you mention it, Bulma is a female Rodney!
You know, it now makes a lot of sense why Rodney was so familiar when SGA started. I've been mulling over this all day, and I realized a lot of my favorite female characters tend to come from anime. I won't say they don't have their own share of problems, but I think they're a lot more comfortable letting their characters be quirky than a lot of live action shows do. Mayura from Matanei Loki immediately comes to mind, as well as Nami from One Piece. That, or I only get pointed to the good animes.

I do think there's this fear on what a woman can or can't do. If she acted like Rodney, berating everyone in sight, running at the mouth, would we like her the same? (Well, yes, we would because her name is Bulma and she's cool.) I noticed that a lot of my hangups with a character is if the readers are going to like her, probably when I should be more concerned about liking her and interesting in her reactions.

I'm definitely drawn to male friendships, at least in writing, more than female friendships. They are a completely different animal, I think because of gender roles and the accepted norms in society, especially Western society. They shouldn't cry, talk about their feelings, and those fun clichés. I think part of the reason they're so fun to write is you have to think outside the box, see what's going on under the surface. I know that I can say "love you" to some of my female friends and not have them misinterpret it. If I said that to one of my guy friends I think he would be running so fast he'd break world records.

I think I've gotten to a cozy place on John and Rodney's friendship, some days they practically write themselves (at least when John's not trying to emote). I've still got a lot stories to finish up, and while I don't necessarily want to stop writing them, I do want to expand my palette, like you said, address some of the things that aren't normally seen.

"Trinity" was a great episode. I loved that moment between Ronon and Teyla at the end. That was the first time Teyla really scared me. Her low, raspy voice as she was able to pin someone twice her size against a wall, very well done. Yet she was still be able to move on and forgive him. I mean, that's why I love her character. She's got issues, we don't see them often as he tries to hide them, I just wish I could connect with it more.

I think "That Which is Broken" was a great team fic, and you were able to sort through Ronon and Teyla's issues at the same time dealing with everything else that was going on. I do envy your ability to slip into Teyla's head, but as you said, it could just be a mental block I might not get around. I think after I finish up with my big summer writing I might try something with her, even if it's short.

You forgot to add the prostitute with a heart of gold! :D

To be honest I think it comes from our source material - mass media is pretty much produced for and by males and if you're looking for character with some pizzaz, bit of a sense of humour, and are active = 9.9 times out of 10 it's going to be a bloke. Men are the baseline of what is normal because it's their viewpoint that we see the world through.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about it, because we've all been conditioned this way - and they fact that you're aware is an improvement on a lot of people. Eh, write a male character and then change all the pronouns. :D

It's a "man's world", and I do find it a little unsettling sometimes how much influence mass media has on my thoughts and internal workings. But darn it, the men are such interesting characters.

You forgot to add the prostitute with a heart of gold! :D

Damn! I knew I was forgetting something! I think I'll have John go pick up a hooker after he and Rodney have their sleepover and braid each others'

Eh, write a male character and then change all the pronouns. :D

...actually, that's kind of my new philosophy if I'm starting to suspect Sue-ism in a character. Of course, it creates very sexually confused women, but hey, that just makes life (and the characters) more interesting! :D

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